Jantar 48-2 vs Pik20d

[Jeff Runciman]

Hi guys,

It has been a while since I have posted here. I have
finally narrowed my search to 2 gliders. I am aware
of the following on each glider:

Jantar - Visibility during tow, and tight cockpit (I
am 5'10' 148 lbs so I fit ok).

Pik 20D - Thick wing mold, parts support, and flaps.

I am a low time glider pilot (27 hours), private pilot
(180 hours) and a high time hang glider pilot (560
hours). I am looking for input regarding the handling,
visibility during flight, problems with each glider,
and any other input.

Thank You,

Jeff Runciman

[c***@hotmail.com]

Post by Jeff Runciman
Hi guys,
It has been a while since I have posted here. I have
finally narrowed my search to 2 gliders. I am aware
Jantar - Visibility during tow, and tight cockpit (I
am 5'10' 148 lbs so I fit ok).
Pik 20D - Thick wing mold, parts support, and flaps.
I am a low time glider pilot (27 hours), private pilot
(180 hours) and a high time hang glider pilot (560
hours). I am looking for input regarding the handling,
visibility during flight, problems with each glider,
and any other input.
Thank You,
Jeff Runciman

[c***@hotmail.com]

Sorry about that last blank post. Did you write off ASW 19 and Pegasus
101? If so, why?
Here is a good PIK link:
http://www.appledor.net/tsillas/soaring/index.html
Craig

Post by Jeff Runciman
Hi guys,
It has been a while since I have posted here. I have
finally narrowed my search to 2 gliders. I am aware
Jantar - Visibility during tow, and tight cockpit (I
am 5'10' 148 lbs so I fit ok).
Pik 20D - Thick wing mold, parts support, and flaps.
I am a low time glider pilot (27 hours), private pilot
(180 hours) and a high time hang glider pilot (560
hours). I am looking for input regarding the handling,
visibility during flight, problems with each glider,
and any other input.
Thank You,
Jeff Runciman

[Jack]

If you're considering a D-model PIK, the flaps are not such an
obstacle. It has flaps and spoilers. My B-model, has flaps only, and
some people are put off by that. All I can say is that I'm 5'10" and
225 lbs. I am a little tight in the shoulders in my PIK, but not
uncomfortable. I believe the PIKs will end up being among the most
durable sailplanes ever produced. I also believe you'll be happeir with
the PIKs performance.

Just my opinion...

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

[KM]

Post by Jeff Runciman
Hi guys,
I have
finally narrowed my search to 2 gliders. I am aware
Jantar - Visibility during tow, and tight cockpit (I
am 5'10' 148 lbs so I fit ok).
Pik 20D - Thick wing mold, parts support, and flaps.

Jeff, I asume you are talking about a Jantar Standard?When I was
shopping a few years ago I noticed that the price of an ASW20 was just
barely more than the PIK20D.So I went with the ASW20 as a first ship
and no complaints (Just be methodical about checking yourself out)!The
PIK is nice, but I think the ASW20 is just a bit faster and MUCH better
product support.Stick with the flaped ships if you can, you will be
alot happier than with a standard.
Another thing to consider is that with ships this old, sometimes you
just have to go after condition and not limit yourself to a peticular
type of ship.
Good Luck, you are just in time for shopping season.

Post by Jeff Runciman
Thank You,
Jeff Runciman

K Urban

[Jeff Runciman]

I have not written off any gliders yet. I have been
looking since 2005. I have not been able to find an
ASW 19 and the 101 has not been imported into Canada
yet. I would love to get a 101 as I have heard it
is a flapless ASW 20 but would be hard to bring into
Canada. It is also almost impossible to bring in an
experimental aircraft into Canada.

Jeff

Post by c***@hotmail.com
Sorry about that last blank post. Did you write off
ASW 19 and Pegasus
101? If so, why?
http://www.appledor.net/tsillas/soaring/index.html
Craig

Post by Jeff Runciman
Hi guys,
It has been a while since I have posted here. I have
finally narrowed my search to 2 gliders. I am aware
Jantar - Visibility during tow, and tight cockpit
(I
am 5'10' 148 lbs so I fit ok).
Pik 20D - Thick wing mold, parts support, and flaps.
I am a low time glider pilot (27 hours), private pilot
(180 hours) and a high time hang glider pilot (560
hours). I am looking for input regarding the handling,
visibility during flight, problems with each glider,
and any other input.
Thank You,
Jeff Runciman

[Udo]

Post by Jeff Runciman
I have not written off any gliders yet. I have been
looking since 2005. I have not been able to find an
ASW 19 and the 101 has not been imported into Canada
yet. I would love to get a 101 as I have heard it
is a flapless ASW 20 but would be hard to bring into
Canada. It is also almost impossible to bring in an
experimental aircraft into Canada.

You are right regarding the 101 if it is not certified/approved in
Canada
In other words you would have to do the leg work to get it approved.
Importing an experimental and if this type is flying and certified in
Canada
then it is just a question of getting the paper work in order. It may
cost
you an extra $500.00. Been there done that. Even a registered home
built
can be imported into Canada.

Udo

[Jack]

On any PIK, or any sailplane for that matter, look at the ADs and the
log book. My PIK-20B has several ADs that can be periodically
inspected, or fixed permanently. All of mine had the permanent fix so I
don't have to fool with them. I do still look... I may be crazy, but I
ain't stupid!

Best of luck with it.

Jack

[c***@hotmail.com]

Check this:

http://asw19.bravehost.com/

Craig

Post by Jeff Runciman
I have not been able to find an
ASW 19.

[jeplane]

Actually, don't check it!

When Turf closed, I decided to sell it, but it has so much crazing that
no one was really interrested in it. So I decided to fly it after all,
and just put 90 hrs in it the last 6 months!
Still fly nice, and it's now paid for...

So don't waste your time calling me, I am keeping it!...:-)

Richard
ASW19
Phoenix AZ

Post by c***@hotmail.com
http://asw19.bravehost.com/

[stephanevdv]

Some PIK-20D's have problems with the paint (very thick in places)
coming off: Big blisters form, then crack and come off. The repair
manual says you should make a hole in the blister, inject glue and
press the paint on again. My club had his PIK (very bad paint problems
around the canopy cut-out and on the wing trailing edge) professionaly
repaired and resprayed once, and the guy said he would never take on
another job like that. But many PIK have flawless paints, so you should
check that in person before buying.

It is a very nice glider to fly, very responsive to the ailerons,
except in the full positive flap position. You have to ballast it when
you want to fly over 100 mph, the wing - carbon fibre spar - is rock
hard and gives a very turbulent ride if you don't. Ergonomy is
excellent, everything is exactly where you want it to be (in that
respect, it is much better than the ASW-20). But I wouldn't advise a
beginner to fly one: you need to move the flaps during start and
landing.

The Jantar is a very nice glider too, if you've got the right
proportions to be able to actuate the wheel and airbrake levers (my
arms are too long). The original gelcoat is not very good (too thin and
not really smooth), but can of course be improved by respraying, and
the view is restricted by the canopy frame (2 parts). The canopy, once
opened, is very sensible to wind (it opens to the rear and stays
vertical, retained by a weak spring system). You have to choose between
no ballast and full ballast (150 liters) for take off (you can
unballast partially once in the air). It's not as good as some other
gliders in very weak conditions, but it is a very fast club glider,
even unballasted, in good to very good weather.

[c***@hotmail.com]

All gliders have at least one or two negative points it seems. If you
strike off a glider because of a negative or two, your gonna wind up
with nothing. Shopping for and finding one in good condition is the
challange I guess. Pros vs the Cons. Of course if you can spend more, a
few more options come into the light and the model year may be more
recent. Personally, I might be able to go up to about $30,000 when I am
ready to buy. (Keeping fingers crossed) So close to an LS-4 or early
Discus? Then there is the partnership idea. That looks more attractive
all the time if one could find the right person. I would be very
interested to hear what the good to bad ratio is in partnerships.
Craig

Post by stephanevdv
Some PIK-20D's have problems with the paint (very thick in places)
coming off: Big blisters form, then crack and come off. The repair
manual says you should make a hole in the blister, inject glue and
press the paint on again. My club had his PIK (very bad paint problems
around the canopy cut-out and on the wing trailing edge) professionaly
repaired and resprayed once, and the guy said he would never take on
another job like that. But many PIK have flawless paints, so you should
check that in person before buying.
It is a very nice glider to fly, very responsive to the ailerons,
except in the full positive flap position. You have to ballast it when
you want to fly over 100 mph, the wing - carbon fibre spar - is rock
hard and gives a very turbulent ride if you don't. Ergonomy is
excellent, everything is exactly where you want it to be (in that
respect, it is much better than the ASW-20). But I wouldn't advise a
beginner to fly one: you need to move the flaps during start and
landing.
The Jantar is a very nice glider too, if you've got the right
proportions to be able to actuate the wheel and airbrake levers (my
arms are too long). The original gelcoat is not very good (too thin and
not really smooth), but can of course be improved by respraying, and
the view is restricted by the canopy frame (2 parts). The canopy, once
opened, is very sensible to wind (it opens to the rear and stays
vertical, retained by a weak spring system). You have to choose between
no ballast and full ballast (150 liters) for take off (you can
unballast partially once in the air). It's not as good as some other
gliders in very weak conditions, but it is a very fast club glider,
even unballasted, in good to very good weather.

[Jeff Runciman]

Thanks Jack.

Is there anything in particular that I should look
at on the D that may be a problem during inspection?

Jeff

Post by Jack
If you're considering a D-model PIK, the flaps are
not such an
obstacle. It has flaps and spoilers. My B-model, has
flaps only, and
some people are put off by that. All I can say is that
I'm 5'10' and
225 lbs. I am a little tight in the shoulders in my
PIK, but not
uncomfortable. I believe the PIKs will end up being
among the most
durable sailplanes ever produced. I also believe you'll
be happeir with
the PIKs performance.
Just my opinion...
Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

[Jeff Runciman]

Thanks Jack.

Is there anything in particular that I should look
at on the D that may be a problem during inspection?

Jeff

Post by Jack
If you're considering a D-model PIK, the flaps are
not such an
obstacle. It has flaps and spoilers. My B-model, has
flaps only, and
some people are put off by that. All I can say is that
I'm 5'10' and
225 lbs. I am a little tight in the shoulders in my
PIK, but not
uncomfortable. I believe the PIKs will end up being
among the most
durable sailplanes ever produced. I also believe you'll
be happeir with
the PIKs performance.
Just my opinion...
Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

[Jeff Runciman]

Thanks Jack.

Is there anything in particular that I should look
at on the D that may be a problem during inspection?

Jeff

Post by Jack
If you're considering a D-model PIK, the flaps are
not such an
obstacle. It has flaps and spoilers. My B-model, has
flaps only, and
some people are put off by that. All I can say is that
I'm 5'10' and
225 lbs. I am a little tight in the shoulders in my
PIK, but not
uncomfortable. I believe the PIKs will end up being
among the most
durable sailplanes ever produced. I also believe you'll
be happeir with
the PIKs performance.
Just my opinion...
Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

[Jeff Runciman]

Thanks Jack.

Is there anything in particular that I should look
at on the D that may be a problem during inspection?

Jeff

Post by Jack
If you're considering a D-model PIK, the flaps are
not such an
obstacle. It has flaps and spoilers. My B-model, has
flaps only, and
some people are put off by that. All I can say is that
I'm 5'10' and
225 lbs. I am a little tight in the shoulders in my
PIK, but not
uncomfortable. I believe the PIKs will end up being
among the most
durable sailplanes ever produced. I also believe you'll
be happeir with
the PIKs performance.
Just my opinion...
Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

[Jeff Runciman]

Thanks Jack.

Is there anything in particular that I should look
at on the D that may be a problem during inspection?

Jeff

Post by Jack
If you're considering a D-model PIK, the flaps are
not such an
obstacle. It has flaps and spoilers. My B-model, has
flaps only, and
some people are put off by that. All I can say is that
I'm 5'10' and
225 lbs. I am a little tight in the shoulders in my
PIK, but not
uncomfortable. I believe the PIKs will end up being
among the most
durable sailplanes ever produced. I also believe you'll
be happeir with
the PIKs performance.
Just my opinion...
Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

[Jeff Runciman]

Do you know what paperwork is required?

Jeff

Post by Udo

Post by Jeff Runciman
I have not written off any gliders yet. I have been
looking since 2005. I have not been able to find
an
ASW 19 and the 101 has not been imported into Canada
yet. I would love to get a 101 as I have heard it
is a flapless ASW 20 but would be hard to bring into
Canada. It is also almost impossible to bring in
an
experimental aircraft into Canada.

You are right regarding the 101 if it is not certified/approved
in
Canada
In other words you would have to do the leg work to
get it approved.
Importing an experimental and if this type is flying
and certified in
Canada
then it is just a question of getting the paper work
in order. It may
cost
you an extra $500.00. Been there done that. Even a
registered home
built
can be imported into Canada.
Udo

[Mike Crawley]

Jeff
The Pik20d is a really nice glider to fly. It is a
little tight across the seatpan so if you have wide
hips you may have a problem. Good for tall pilots as
lots of leg adjustment.
It has one advantage you omitted to mention , that
is it is not finished in glass so does not suffer the
cracking/crazing that glass does so does not require
re finishing every few years....
If inspecting ensure that the mod to the lower rudder
hinge bracket has been carried out ( they tend to crack
where the bend was too tight & an AD requires them
to be welded to strengthen them) and also the u/c
frame has a tendency to crack..(see Jim Tsillas site
for more info)

The 20d is a very strong glider but performance drops
off once the wings are wet.

As I have never flown a Jantar I can not compare them
but I do like the Pik and I am sure you will also if
you buy one.

Mike Crawley

[Jeff Runciman]

Thanks Craig,

I am a bit limited on the types of ships due to Transport
Canada regulations on import. I am going to look at
the PIK20D this weekend. If anyone has any more comments
about the PIK like what to inspect on this glider let
me know. I have the AD's and will be checking the
log books.

Jeff

[Phil Collin]

Post by Jeff Runciman
Thanks Craig,
I am a bit limited on the types of ships due to Transport
Canada regulations on import. I am going to look at
the PIK20D this weekend. If anyone has any more comments
about the PIK like what to inspect on this glider let
me know. I have the AD's and will be checking the
log books.
Jeff

Purely personal opinion here being a PIK20B Owner and Driver, PIK's Rock
Jantar's don't :-)
The 20D has the sensible mod of Airbrakes which makes it easier to land
then the flapped only B model.
The wing caps are carbon fibre as opposed to the whole spa on the B.
The easiest way to find out if it's right for you is to go fly it.
The aerofoil is laminar flow and doesn't like water.
Apart from that you'll get "A lot of bang for your buck"

[Solo]

If you are in Canada, you do not have a choice since the SZD 48-2 is no
certified in the country.

If the 20D does not work, do not disregard the B model. A lot of the
come with carbon spar. They take a little bit of getting used to but
having only flaps is not a problem after a few hour of practice.

I purchased one this spring and see no need for spoilers anymore.

Post by Jeff Runciman
Thanks Craig,
I am a bit limited on the types of ships due to Transport
Canada regulations on import. I am going to look at
the PIK20D this weekend. If anyone has any more comments
about the PIK like what to inspect on this glider let
me know. I have the AD's and will be checking the
log books.
Jef

--
Solo