Discussion:
TOST vs. Schweizer Hooks on Tow Planes.
(too old to reply)
Jason Scott
2019-04-29 20:37:54 UTC
Permalink
Currently operating 3 tow planes, all with Schweizer hooks installed. I would love to get access to some concrete information on the issues with the Schweizer hooks, comparison between the two, and any concerns with the TOST system. My goal is to likely switch over the fleet, having personally experienced a situation with a glider losing directional control on tow, and causing momentary upset to the towplane. In my opinion, the TOST system is superior, and tangible information is the best way to present this opinion to the other parties involved in our operation.
Paul Agnew
2019-04-29 21:07:40 UTC
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https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.aviation.soaring/bo90yIUlxRo/discussion

There was a lively discussion concerning the two tow hook options. It's worth reading before everyone chimes in here.

Paul A.
Jupiter, FL
Walt Connelly
2019-05-01 12:28:11 UTC
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Post by Jason Scott
Currently operating 3 tow planes, all with Schweizer hooks installed.
would love to get access to some concrete information on the issues wit
the Schweizer hooks, comparison between the two, and any concerns wit
the TOST system. My goal is to likely switch over the fleet, havin
personally experienced a situation with a glider losing directiona
control on tow, and causing momentary upset to the towplane. In m
opinion, the TOST system is superior, and tangible information is th
best way to present this opinion to the other parties involved in ou
operation.
In the FAA Advisory Circular, Date 3/3/08 AC No 43.13-2b, Page 76, Pa
808 states as follows:

“ WHEN THE GLIDER UNDER TOW OPERATES ABOVE A CERTAIN ANGLE TO TH
TOW PLANE, THE RING MAY SLIDE UPWARDS ON THE HOOK, CAUSING EXCESSIV
LOAD ON THE HOOK AND DIFFICULTY IN RELEASING THE TOW ROPE RING.”

The Soaring Society of America thru their Soaring Safety Foundation, To
Pilot Training Course additionally acknowledge IN RED as follows:

“If at any time the nose of the tow plane is pulled uncontrollabl
by the glider to a dangerously high or low pitch attitude, - PULL TH
RELEASE! “

It goes on to say:

“Depending on the installation of the tow hitch, it may be possibl
for the release mechanism to become jammed due to the excessively hig
position of the glider, (American style hook). “

Here we have two "authorities" acknowledging the problem which has bee
a contributing factor to the death of tow pilots in the past. Thi
condition has existed for a few decades at least with knowledge of and
lack of interest in correcting the matter. If this is not 'concrete
enough then I don't know what would be.

Every report I have read notes a "delay in releasing" on the part of th
tow pilot. I would submit that there was no delay in the attempt
rather a mechanism which is meant to release but will not as noted i
the above documents.

My letter to the FAA recommended at a MINIMUM that there be blanke
permission for a qualified A&P IA to invert the Schweizer hook AND t
allow for the increase in the length of the release handle, increasin
the mechanical advantage and allowing for access to the tow pilot in th
upright and seated position. It is absurd to have it down on the floo
and with a 5-1 mechanical advantage which has been shown to b
inadequate to affect a release. The TOST system would be preferabl
especially if you consider that you may not tow any glider with a ma
gross weight of 1500 lbs with the Schweizer hook as this system i
limited to a 1200 lb rope.

The push back will be the cost of the Tost system and while you're at i
don't forget to improve the position and mechanical advantage of th
release handle. But If you don't value the life of your tow pilots...

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot (7K tows)
Now happily flying helicopter


--
Walt Connelly
g***@gmail.com
2019-05-01 13:57:27 UTC
Permalink
"> The push back will be the cost of the Tost system"
Push back is not about cost, push back is about the lack of information on legally installing the Tost system on all current towplanes in light of you wanting the FAA to ban all Schweizer hooks. As I said to you last time this came up, if you want to make towing safer collect and make available STCs and successful 337s for Tost hook installations. Instead of whining to a higher power for a solution that screws clubs be the solution that helps clubs.
Dan Marotta
2019-05-01 15:09:13 UTC
Permalink
I question why the FAA would care if a Schweizer release was mounted
inverted.  I would also bet that it would be a very simple 337 which
would allow the modification.

That said, when I installed Garmin G5 instruments in the 180 to replace
the vacuum instruments, I found that I could not move the vacuum
attitude indicator to the right hand panel as a backup. According to
Garmin's installation manual the instrument had to be moved one position
left and one row down.  That's what the STC called for.  What a bunch of
crap.
Post by g***@gmail.com
"> The push back will be the cost of the Tost system"
Push back is not about cost, push back is about the lack of information on legally installing the Tost system on all current towplanes in light of you wanting the FAA to ban all Schweizer hooks. As I said to you last time this came up, if you want to make towing safer collect and make available STCs and successful 337s for Tost hook installations. Instead of whining to a higher power for a solution that screws clubs be the solution that helps clubs.
--
Dan, 5J
Walt Connelly
2019-05-02 13:32:35 UTC
Permalink
" The push back will be the cost of the Tost system"
Push back is not about cost, push back is about the lack of informatio
on legally installing the Tost system on all current towplanes in ligh
of you wanting the FAA to ban all Schweizer hooks. As I said to yo
last time this came up, if you want to make towing safer collect an
make available STCs and successful 337s for Tost hook installations.
Instead of whining to a higher power for a solution that screws clubs b
the solution that helps clubs.
Your characterization of my "whining" to a higher power speaks of on
unconcerned with safety. I pointed out clearly the glaring knowledge o
a problem which has resulted in the death of tow pilots. The FAA A
acknowledges the problem as does the SSA/SSF (which is a joke). The SS
is a toothless tiger along for the ride while collecting dues an
selling magazines in my Constitutionally protected opinion. The FAA ha
the teeth if they choose to chew.

I'm more concerned with saving lives than anything else having been
second or two from losing mine. If your mechanics can't find th
appropriate STCs and 337s perhaps you need to find another mechanic.

I've been contacted by one tow pilot who has acknowledge my action
which influenced his facility to make the changes I recommended. By hi
acknowledgement it saved his life shortly thereafter. I've heard fro
commercial operators who experienced this event and realized th
potential. They did the work needed to make the changes to a safer
more accessable system.

Have a nice day.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happily flying Whirlybirds


--
Walt Connelly
Charles Longley
2019-05-03 11:44:12 UTC
Permalink
You don’t mention what type of fleet you have. Putting a Tost tow hook on a Pawnee, Super Cub or Husky is very simple mechanically and paperwork wise.
d***@gmail.com
2019-05-01 13:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Connelly, for my own knowledge where does the 1500/1200 lb. limitation on the Schwiezer system come from. Ive tried to find a reference in the past but couldnt find one.

To respectfully add to the debate, I'd challenge anyone in favor of ousting the Schwiezer system if they feel the same way about aero tow with a Tost c.g. hook? Here the superior Tost system has been perhaps miss used and this installation has caused more glider accidents and fatalities than Schwiezer release on tow plane accidents.
I appreciate the position of the "hands off" crowd, what I'd like to see is if those in favor of banning the Schwiezer system on the tow plane also believe they should be beholden to a regulation or policy affecting the method by which they are towed in their glider (when it's their expense).
These two items would have the single biggest impact on soaring safety that I can think of at the lowest cost and highest participation level if it were either a regulatory or insurance requirement. The problem is pilots are cheap and nobody thinks it will happen to them.

-Doug
Paul Agnew
2019-05-01 15:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
Mr. Connelly, for my own knowledge where does the 1500/1200 lb. limitation on the Schwiezer system come from. Ive tried to find a reference in the past but couldnt find one.
There are numerous mentions on RAS regarding the placarded #1200 limit on Pawnee. Ex:

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.aviation.soaring/cSmTbQEuaK4/discussion

PA
Paul Agnew
2019-05-01 16:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know the limits on these STC'd hooks? They claim to be better than Schweizer hooks, but don't list any numbers to substantiate it. (I've emailed an inquiry to them.)

https://pacificaerialtowhooks.com/
Dan Daly
2019-05-01 16:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Agnew
Does anyone know the limits on these STC'd hooks? They claim to be better than Schweizer hooks, but don't list any numbers to substantiate it. (I've emailed an inquiry to them.)
https://pacificaerialtowhooks.com/
If you read the documents section on that website it says 1200 lbs max. http://pacificaerialtowhooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/FW_FWI660_13_Rev_IR__ICA.pdf . Page 203.
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
2019-05-01 18:53:48 UTC
Permalink
I have not read all the links on tow hooks for towplanes.......

Most STC's are paperwork.
What works is "sorta based on normal tow position" from what I see.

The issue here is.....when does "out of position by a fair amount create an issue for either end!"....

Forget high tow vs. low tow.....separate discussion (hammered many times on RAS....)....

Some is design, some is maintenance, some is how you fly a certain tow type.....

An inverted Schweitzer hook may be fine, if maintained.....same as a Tost or others....
A towed ship waaaayyyyy out of position may FUBAR ANY hook system.....
Paul Agnew
2019-05-03 17:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Agnew
Does anyone know the limits on these STC'd hooks? They claim to be better than Schweizer hooks, but don't list any numbers to substantiate it. (I've emailed an inquiry to them.)
https://pacificaerialtowhooks.com/
I just heard back from Pacific Aerial Towhooks.

#1200 glider weight limit using AC 43.13-2B, 804(d). Their release handles look to be at least 5:1 by design.

PA
m***@gmail.com
2019-05-03 18:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Agnew
Does anyone know the limits on these STC'd hooks? They claim to be better than Schweizer hooks, but don't list any numbers to substantiate it. (I've emailed an inquiry to them.)
https://pacificaerialtowhooks.com/
Paul as I replied to your email,
The pacific Aerial Tow Hook is rated for a limit load of 1440 lbs. using AC 43.13-2B, 804(d) the glider can be 1200 lbs or a banner can be 720 lb, (although we recommend a banner limit of 600 lb.) The rope for glider towing is limited to 960 lbs breaking strength.

The geometry of the Schweizer hook has a load ratio on the release of .377 and the PATH tow hook has a load ratio of .265, so the release loads on the Schweizer are 42% more. Also the ring is held in one location and can't move around like the Schweizer hook.
Charlie Quebec
2019-05-02 00:04:22 UTC
Permalink
A CG hook and high tow is a recipe for disaster. I only have CG on my Dg200, no problem at all with low tow.
We don’t allow anything other than Tost here, thank goodness.
d***@gmail.com
2019-05-02 10:50:38 UTC
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Why is CG and high tow a bad thing???
m***@gmail.com
2019-05-03 18:29:59 UTC
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Post by Jason Scott
Currently operating 3 tow planes, all with Schweizer hooks installed. I would love to get access to some concrete information on the issues with the Schweizer hooks, comparison between the two, and any concerns with the TOST system. My goal is to likely switch over the fleet, having personally experienced a situation with a glider losing directional control on tow, and causing momentary upset to the towplane. In my opinion, the TOST system is superior, and tangible information is the best way to present this opinion to the other parties involved in our operation.
Pacific Aerial Tow Hooks has an FAA approved STC with a hook that has lower release forces than the Schwitzer hook. The tested release load on a new PATH hook is only 56 lbs with a 1000 lb tow load at 20 degrees. The whole kit is STCed on a wide variety of aircraft.
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