Anyone test fly both the JS3 and the Ventus 3?

[Richard DalCanto]

I have a deposit on both with FES system. The JS3 would arrive in 2020. The Ventus maybe 2021. Reading the POH, the Ventus may have gentler stall characteristics (according to the manual with forward CG it won't drop a wing on stall either level or in a 45 degree bank). The JS3 manual makes it sound like it will drop a wing (which could be an issue close to terrain). Because of this, I'm leaning toward the Ventus despite the narrower cockpit and longer wait. Anyone flown both who is willing to comment? Or flown the JS3 and can comment on stall characteristics?

Thanks!

[e***@yahoo.com]

Richard,

I have not flown either but would like too. I do know that Eric Nelson and Ken Sorenson, both have V3's. Maybe you can reach out to them? Have not heard much about the JS3 since the introduction about a year ago. Good Luck with your Selection.

BAS

[Brett]

Post by Richard DalCanto
I have a deposit on both with FES system. The JS3 would arrive in 2020
The Ventus maybe 2021. Reading the POH, the Ventus may have gentle
stall characteristics (according to the manual with forward CG it won'
drop a wing on stall either level or in a 45 degree bank). The JS
manual makes it sound like it will drop a wing (which could be an issu
close to terrain). Because of this, I'm leaning toward the Ventu
despite the narrower cockpit and longer wait. Anyone flown both who i
willing to comment? Or flown the JS3 and can comment on stal
characteristics?
Thanks!

While I have not flown a Ventus 3 I hear they have great low spee
handling characteristics the V2 had a reputation for. They are a lovel
sailplane. I own a JS3 and I find it very predicable at low speed - i
gives great feedback when the airspeed is lower than it likes and i
gives the "mushy" stall with no wing drop unless I stall it sharply
Also consider that these sailplanes are designed for racing at highe
wingloadings and handling characteristics move up the airspeed rang
accordingly.
If you have the experience to utilise the performance of these cuttin
edge sailplanes then you have nothing to fear from them. Close t
terrain you should always be adding an airspeed margin anyway.
Either is a good choice


--
Brett

[Richard DalCanto]

Post by Richard DalCanto
I have a deposit on both with FES system. The JS3 would arrive in 2020. The Ventus maybe 2021. Reading the POH, the Ventus may have gentler stall characteristics (according to the manual with forward CG it won't drop a wing on stall either level or in a 45 degree bank). The JS3 manual makes it sound like it will drop a wing (which could be an issue close to terrain). Because of this, I'm leaning toward the Ventus despite the narrower cockpit and longer wait. Anyone flown both who is willing to comment? Or flown the JS3 and can comment on stall characteristics?
Thanks!

Thanks Brett! Have you flown the V2 yourself, or is the comment about the older Ventus stall characteristics based on what you've heard? I'm thinking about flying from Utah to Florida in March (just for two days) for the opening weekend of the Senior Championships just to try to sit in both the JS3 and Ventus 3 cockpits.

[Brett]

Thanks Brett! Have you flown the V2 yourself, or is the comment abou
the older Ventus stall characteristics based on what you've heard? I'
thinking about flying from Utah to Florida in March (just for two days
for the opening weekend of the Senior Championships just to try to si
in both the JS3 and Ventus 3 cockpits.

Richard- yes I have flown the V2C and the V2CX. Both very nice gliders t
fly or own and considerably better in the handling department than th
first generation (which I have also flown).
Reading your post I'm wondering about your experience level. (I mean n
offence). Modern high wing-loading sailplanes are very easy to fly, bu
would you buy a Ferrari as a first car for a commuter? Because everythin
happens a bit faster at the lower end of the airspeed spectrum when yo
have decreased wing area and non-jettisonable ballast such as a FE
system.
What type of flying to you have in mind with your new sailplane
competition? club flying? mountain flying? etc. Forgive me if I hav
misread your concerns.
You should be leaning on your SH and JS agents to organise you som
familiarity with their sailplanes - especially if you have gone so far a
place orders.
Best of luck


--
Brett

[Richard DalCanto]

Hi Brett!
No offense taken - this will be my third and last glider. The V3 and JS3 were pretty equivalent at Worlds, so I just want the best handling, easiest flying “Ferrari” possible, because as humans we get tired, get older, and can make a mistake when we get complacent (and in Utah, I can be in strong turbulence 200 feet from a mountain at 10,000MSL and 5,000 above the valley floor). The first JS3s are just now arriving in the US, so there has literally not been a glider for me to even look at. There are also no V3s in Utah. I’m curious to know what part of the world you live in to already have a JS3? With so few JS3s in the world, I also wonder if you are sponsored or otherwise connected to Jonker? We can take this offline if taking it private affects your answers at all, because I would like to know how you feel the handling of the JS3 compares to your experience in the V2 (I have talked to Ken and others about the V3, but you are literally the only person I have found who has actually flown a JS3 - even the US agent for Jonker for the western US has not flown one yet!).

Thanks again,
Richard
To take it private, you can call, or text me your email to my cell 801-673-4943.

[Brett]

Sure Richard

I'm in NZ so shoot me a PM to bretthunternz(at)gmail(dot)com
Regard


--
Brett

[c***@gmail.com]

'With so few JS3s in the world' - Number 43 was test flown 3 days ago - so they are certainly producing JS3s' in significant numbers.

Clinton Birch
LAK 12

[a***@gmail.com]

I have flown the JS-3 against a Ventus 3 recently. It usually takes 3-4 thermals to leave the Ventus behind (gaining 3-400 ft per thermal). But please be aware that this in good conditions. In poorer conditions the low wing-loading of the V3 will probably be less of a handicap.

[Andrzej Kobus]

Post by a***@gmail.com
I have flown the JS-3 against a Ventus 3 recently. It usually takes 3-4 thermals to leave the Ventus behind (gaining 3-400 ft per thermal). But please be aware that this in good conditions. In poorer conditions the low wing-loading of the V3 will probably be less of a handicap.

I think you made a mistake you have flown against another pilot who happened to fly V3 and you did better. Everything else is uncertain.

Andrzej

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Post by a***@gmail.com
I have flown the JS-3 against a Ventus 3 recently. It usually takes 3-4 thermals to leave the Ventus behind (gaining 3-400 ft per thermal). But please be aware that this in good conditions. In poorer conditions the low wing-loading of the V3 will probably be less of a handicap.

"I have flown the JS-3 against a Ventus 3 recently. It usually takes 3-4 thermals to leave the Ventus behind (gaining 3-400 ft per thermal)." That might be the case when conditions warrant 12 plus pounds wingloading. However, even the I believe, September Jonkers newsletter, told of a week day at the world championships when they went from four JS3's in the top 5 slots to one JS3 in the 5 top slots.

[Richard DalCanto]

With FES, and my weight with chute (190lbs), the empty wing loading on the JS3 will be 8.47. The V3 would be 8.23 (the V3 is a little heavier than the JS3 which erases some of its wing loading advantage based purely on wing area). I don't think that is significant.
The performance difference is probably minor enough to not matter for me (the most I plan on doing are local competitions). The JS3 would arrive 1-2 years earlier, and has a larger cockpit. I sat in a Ventus 2A and I don't fit at all (my shoulders were getting painfully squeezed, my head was hitting the top of the canopy, and my knees were against the bottom of the instrument panel because there isn't enough leg room). I have to see if I fit in the slightly larger V3 Sport cockpit. If I don't, then I will stick with the JS3.

[Dave Springford]

You can't really compare the V3 Sport cockpit with the V2a cockpit, they are completely different. Besides being a different fuselage altogether than the 2a, the pilot seating position has also been adjusted in the V3 Sport.

The pilot is rotated downward with butt further forward such that the shoulders are now positioned further back and at the widest part of the cockpit. The rudder pedals also have more adjustment allowing for a larger range of pilot heights.

It is still not a large cockpit like a 27, but probably similar to the LS8 and certainly larger than the old "a" cockpit.

Then, there is still the option of the larger V3 Performance cockpit with the forward hinged canopy and larger instrument panel.

[Richard DalCanto]

Dave,
I was going based on what the SH sales agent has told me (that the Sport cockpit is similar to 2A). Unfortunately, as of now, they are not planning on offering FES with Performance cockpit. That is why I have decided I REALLY need to sit in a V3. I'm trying to find one in the Western half of the US so I can fly out for a day and sit in it for 10 minutes. If anyone has one, please let me know....

[Dave Springford]

I visited the S-H factory in October and sat in and flew the V3 sport and spent a lot of time talking to Tilo and the engineers about the V3 and while the fuselage is similar in size to the 2a, it is completely different. I agree, you absolutely need to sit in one and see how it fits YOU.

email me dave "at" foxonecorp "dot" com and I'll see if I can direct you to a V3 owner in the west.

[t***@att.net]

Post by Richard DalCanto
Dave,
I was going based on what the SH sales agent has told me (that the Sport cockpit is similar to 2A). Unfortunately, as of now, they are not planning on offering FES with Performance cockpit. That is why I have decided I REALLY need to sit in a V3. I'm trying to find one in the Western half of the US so I can fly out for a day and sit in it for 10 minutes. If anyone has one, please let me know....

I did try on the V3 Sport FES of Jim Frantz and at 6'2" I could not get the rudder pedals far enough forward to have my legs extended. It was most uncomfortable sitting in it for 5 minutes so that rules out a 5 hour flight for sure! Seems to FES motor takes up space in the nose that restricts the forward travel of the rudder pedals. Have not tried on a V3 Sport non FES.

Next to try is a JS3. Hopefully designed for tall pilots.

Tony
LS8
Fits very well

[o***@gmail.com]

I am 6.2' and 210lbs. I fit well into the JS3 (well enough for 8hr flights without fatigue), even better in the LS8 and not at all in the V3 with the small fuselage.
The myth about the JS3 being too heavy to climb, is just that, and if it comes to the run, I would rather be in a JS3 if I wanted to get home first

[Paul T]

Post by o***@gmail.com
I am 6.2' and 210lbs. I fit well into the JS3 (well enough for 8hr

flights

Post by o***@gmail.com
without fatigue), even better in the LS8 and not at all in the V3 with

the

Post by o***@gmail.com
small fuselage.
The myth about the JS3 being too heavy to climb, is just that, and if it
comes to the run, I would rather be in a JS3 if I wanted to get home

first
FAI should mandate a minimum cockpit size to allow for the larger pilot
-smaller pilots are getting a slight performance advantage in these
smaller cockpit planes i.e Discus 2a vs the b. If it can't fit an Osca
then
it should be banned from comps!

[Branko Stojkovic]

Post by Paul T
FAI should mandate a minimum cockpit size to allow for the larger pilot
-smaller pilots are getting a slight performance advantage in these
smaller cockpit planes i.e Discus 2a vs the b. If it can't fit an Oscar
then
it should be banned from comps!

My thoughts exactly! Being tall is punishment enough when flying economy class.

Branko XYU

[y***@gmail.com]

Post by o***@gmail.com

Post by o***@gmail.com
I am 6.2' and 210lbs. I fit well into the JS3 (well enough for 8hr

flights

Post by o***@gmail.com
without fatigue), even better in the LS8 and not at all in the V3 with

the

Post by o***@gmail.com
small fuselage.
The myth about the JS3 being too heavy to climb, is just that, and if it
comes to the run, I would rather be in a JS3 if I wanted to get home

first
FAI should mandate a minimum cockpit size to allow for the larger pilot
-smaller pilots are getting a slight performance advantage in these
smaller cockpit planes i.e Discus 2a vs the b. If it can't fit an Oscar
then
it should be banned from comps!

I think a more typical FAI solution would be to add new classes for tall pilots. 18m-tall and 18m-short.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by y***@gmail.com
I think a more typical FAI solution would be to add new classes for tall pilots. 18m-tall and 18m-short.

How about a "one design" contest? You know, where there is one of each model of glider (V3, JS3, ASH-31, Diana2 etc.) and they are all flown by Sebastian Kawa clones.

[Mike C]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by y***@gmail.com
I think a more typical FAI solution would be to add new classes for tall pilots. 18m-tall and 18m-short.

How about a "one design" contest? You know, where there is one of each model of glider (V3, JS3, ASH-31, Diana2 etc.) and they are all flown by Sebastian Kawa clones.

...and they fly through the exact same air at the same exact time..like in all contest tasks.

[krasw]

Post by o***@gmail.com

Post by o***@gmail.com
I am 6.2' and 210lbs. I fit well into the JS3 (well enough for 8hr

flights

Post by o***@gmail.com
without fatigue), even better in the LS8 and not at all in the V3 with

the

Post by o***@gmail.com
small fuselage.
The myth about the JS3 being too heavy to climb, is just that, and if it
comes to the run, I would rather be in a JS3 if I wanted to get home

first
FAI should mandate a minimum cockpit size to allow for the larger pilot
-smaller pilots are getting a slight performance advantage in these
smaller cockpit planes i.e Discus 2a vs the b. If it can't fit an Oscar
then
it should be banned from comps!

With Schempp A-fuselage you only get advantage over their B/C-fuselage, not over JS3/AS. Their fuselages are 2010's design that are aerodynamically on different level with attention to wing/fuselage-intersection etc.

I talked last summer with one Schleicher pilot with this Schempp fuselage dilemma. Like dozens of others, he has no chance fitting into tiny Ventus3 fuselage, and for him it would be unthinkable to shell out 200k eur to new glider and get second best (Ventus3 with bigger Nimbus4 cockpit). So Schleicher it is.

[j***@gmail.com]

But if one is considering a FES glider then the performance differences between the fuselages of the V3 Sport, V3 Performance, and JS3 are less relevant given the performance loss from the prop on the nose. See the Idaflieg Lak 17a FES report that shows about 2 max LD points (4%) loss and 3-4 kph slower at typical cruise speeds at the same sink rate. It would make no sense to me to try to squeeze into a small cockpit to gain significantly less performance than you are losing from the prop.

[c***@gmail.com]

Ditto.
FWIW, a look at the Czech Index List (handicaps) can give an idea of the Czech considerations about the performance of sailplanes, including all variants.
http://lkka.cz/sport/docs/CZIL.xls

While I really do love the FES system as an easy, immediate, nearly fool-proof sustainer, the performance as indicated by this Czech list seems to fall back one generation. In other words, V3F equals V2CXT.

Aldo Cernezzi

..... It would make no sense to me to try to squeeze into a small cockpit to gain significantly less performance than you are losing from the prop.

[c***@gmail.com]

Ditto. (added small correction)
FWIW, a look at the Czech Index List (handicaps) can give an idea of the Czech considerations about the performance of sailplanes, including all variants.
http://lkka.cz/sport/docs/CZIL.xls

While I really do love the FES system as an easy, immediate, nearly fool-proof sustainer, the performance as indicated by this Czech list seems to fall back one generation. In other words, for example V3F seems practically equal to V2CXT and the same applies to all other types and manufacturers.

Aldo Cernezzi

..... It would make no sense to me to try to squeeze into a small cockpit to gain significantly less performance than you are losing from the prop.

[Roy B.]

That is very interesting Aldo. They certainly do not like the V3 FES in 15m configuration. That is quite a performance penalty.
ROY

[David Kraus]

Hi,
CZIL is not base on someone like or dislike plane, but on actual calculations based on polar of plane.
David

[l***@gmail.com]

Dear Aldo,

thanks for sharing the CZ handicaps - at least around the 120 index point range it makes intuitively a lot more sense than the icreasingly bizarre DAeC list (which can only be used within a class and not class-spanning, which almost randomly penalizes ships by 3 points in case the DAeC is not satisfied with the availability of a particular polar etc). Do you by chance know on what data our Czech friends are basing their handicaps on? Manufacturer polars? Idaflieg polars? Large data samples from Competitions? Specific weather models/assumptions?

Best regards
Marc (S2)

[David Kraus]

Hi,
I can re-poste some information from Czech gliding forum (gliding.cz)
Polars are from Jonhsons measurement, Idaflieg or glider manual depends what available.
All planes flight average day(s) in czech republic(some superb parts,some good legs, some weak) statistically based on multiple competitions in czech republic(years 2003-2009).
David

[t***@hotmail.com]

Richard I know a few pilots that have flown both the V3 and JS3 plus a pilot who spent some time decided which cockpit he best fitted in. Email me and I can pass on those contacts if you like ***@hotmail.com

[Brett]

[ That might be the case when conditions warrant 12 plus pound
wingloading. However, even the I believe, September Jonkers newsletter
told of a week day at the world championships when they went from fou
JS3's in the top 5 slots to one JS3 in the 5 top slots.

Actually that "bad day" was not that weak, and for the JS3's was mor
about the fact that they flew a different track/time and had zero lift o
the last leg to get them home. More bad luck with respect to timing tha
to do with glider performance.
Both are superb sailplanes


--
Brett

[Richard DalCanto]

I am hopefully sitting in a Ventus 3 on Jan 12. We will see if I even fit, because even though I am extremely fit, I do have wide shoulders.

If I go with the Ventus, my best sustainer option will be the FES, which with me+parachute, will bring the empty wing loading to 8.23 lb/ft2 in 18M, and 9.05 in 15M. With the JS3, I can go FES with wing loading 8.47 and 9.22 respectively, or go with the lighter Jet, which with full fuel, would give wing loading more like the Ventus +FES, at 8.23 in 18M, and 8.94 in 15M.....

[Richard DalCanto]

Just an update:

I was able to fly to Texas and meet Ken Sorenson and sit in his V3. First of all, Ken was incredibly nice and accommodating to allow a complete stranger to come into town and sit in his glider for a while. I took up a lot of his time and greatly appreciate his generosity. The glider club there is also first rate, with an amazing private field and really cool club house. Those guys should be very proud of the community they have built there! Just wow!

The V3 is gorgeous. The carbon fiber interior is stunning. The cockpit is a little wider in the shoulders than the Ventus 2A. In the 2A, my shoulders were squeezed so hard it was painful. In the V3, they were barely touching the sides. The pedals don't go as far forward with the FES in the front, and it was maybe another 1/2 inch shorter still because he attached flat plates to the stock pedals for his feet. In that configuration, at 6 feet tall, I either had my head hitting the glass, or if I slid down a little in the seat, my knees hitting the underside of the dash. Without the plates on the pedals, I MIGHT have been able to fit, but with no wiggle room at all. After sitting in there 15-20 minutes, my back, butt, ankles, all hurt. I don't think I could sit in there flying for hours. In the JS1, I had an inch to spare on each side for the shoulders, and I don't remember being tight on head room. The JS3 cockpit is even bigger than the JS1 per report. So I cancelled the V3 order and will go through with the JS3.